appropriate time for us to do that. This is the bicentennial census, so to speak. It would be most appropriate that we do conduct this comprehensive survey, even though it may cost a substantial amount of money. Senator BAYH. That is an idea worth looking into. I would like to ask our staff to explore that with Census Bureau to see what would cost and how it could be structured.

Mr. WALENTYNOWICZ. Let me add this. Part of our problem here, sir, is the fact that in order to make these intelligent decisions in today's complex world, we need a data base. You need facts and so forth to make an intelligent decision.

The Government's executive policies have been such that in many areas no data at all is being collected, so at times we really do not even know the dimensions of the problems. I do feel this, the limited data that has been collected on a private basis, indicates at least the need for further investigation and study. For example, we were involved in a study of the makeup of executive people on the boards of directors and the senior levels of major corporations in the Chicago and Detroit area-something that will be referred to by one of the subsequent speakers this morning.

We found that, for example, there are more blacks in the executive level, for the hundred corporations based in Chicago, than Polish Americans, even though Polish Americans are, in terms of numerical strength and the number of people in the community, equivalent to or perhaps even larger proportionately than blacks in that area.

I am not drawing any final conclusions nor am I advocating a quota system because we do not believe in a quota system. But if we are going to use numbers as some measure of indicating or highlighting problem areas, then here is a problem area nobody is doing anything about. Senator BAYH. Would the national congress support this subcommittee's efforts to get a large enough budget to significantly expand the targets of study?

Mr. WALENTYNOWITZ. Absolutely, with one caution-provided that we have inputs and that we have people reflecting our views in this area. We do not want to have more money and then have such money being used only to support further studies on favored groups.

Senator BAYH. I have never inquired as to how priorities are set for Commission studies. I think it is fair to say that there are some areas that have not been investigated where the manifestations of discrimination are obvious.

You are here honestly telling me that you do not know; but on the other hand there are other areas that have been studied because statistics and other information were readily available.

I refer to the last census. One area they did look at was the voting area, which you are concerned about. The survey broke the vote down into ethnic categories. For example, those of German descent who voted were 70.8 percent, Italians 71.5, Irish 66.6. Polish 72, and Russian 80. For comparison with those you consider "favored groups," the voting percentage was 37.5 for Spanish and Negro, 54.1.

It was that kind of evidence, the kind you could easily come to grip with, that got the Commission started looking more deeply into the problems of certain groups.

Would you be in a position with your nationwide organization to do this? I guess the reason I had not given much thought along those lines is that those members of your organization who are my constituents, have been community leaders, business, political, and otherwise, in Indiana.

Could you help us get some of the information that would show us where we might look, or give us specific evidence that would point to areas of discrimination against Polish Americans?

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Mr. WALENTYNOWICZ. Yes; we would be happy to. Part of our problem is accessibility. That is why we welcome this opportunity to be invited to give testimony. We are out there in America but too often both Congress and the executive branch does not ask for our feelings or guidance.

We would be more than happy to cooperate. We extend an offer of cooperation.

May I make this further observation?

Part of the statistics that you refer to give us some concern because under the past practices of the Census Bureau, ethnic identification ceases after the first generation. That was the practice. In other words, you do not become ethnically identified after the first generation.

On the other hand once you are black, you are black. In other words, you continue that designation regardless of how many generations you are in this country, and for obvious reasons we don't quarrel with that. But there are many Americans who retain their ethnic identification after the first generation, but under the census practices, they are not so identified. That is one problem.

The other observation I would like to make with respect to the problem areas is this. It is one thing to collect data when your effort is to simply eliminate discrimination. Congress, when it created the present laws, approached the problems of discrimination on an individual case basis.

However, with the advent of affirmative action-an effort which has never been actually approved by Congress or even specifically spelled out by Government agencies what is meant by it-the problems change substantially because they now include the problem of group rights. Some of the efforts in affirmative action go beyond simply preparing people for competition by educating them better and so forth. Many of these efforts result in the assertion of group rights and preferential rights. This creates a different ball game.

To the extent that you now start trying to give individual people rights on the basis of group identification, you affect everyone's ability and opportunity to compete. People-individual persons-are now being affected in the competition for jobs, in the competition for educational opportunities and in the competition for Federal moneys on the basis of group rights.

This phenomena creates a different problem entirely in terms of what is needed in terms of data collection.

You will find the Census Bureau has inadequate data in these areas. Does it have the number of Polish Americans in the affirmative action programs? Or how many Polish Americans are given job opportunities or educational opportunities? You will find no data reflecting that information.

We looked for it.

I worked with the Small Business Committee in the House and I asked them:

How can you make a decision giving preferences for certain select minorities in a bill that you are reporting out that is going to be voted on by the Full House, I understand in a few weeks, when you do not have any data on any other groups to indicate that the other groups do not need any help with small business loans? Senator BAYH. I think that you have made that point in your testimony.

I would like for you to help us get some of these facts and figures. Mr. WALENTYNOWICZ. Yes.

Senator BAYH. Give us some evidence of the need for further investigation. I think the evidence of discrimination in other areas has been rather clearly demonstrated; the numbers involved have been significant. Give us some help. We need the same documentation for the "ethnic community." You have familiarity with the community. Give us, if you would, a point-by-point criteria that you would like the Census Bureau or the Civil Rights Commission to consider and we will present it to them.

Mr. WALENTYNOWICZ. We will be happy to. We have talked with the Census Bureau. Mr. Levine, who is in charge of the census, is sympathetic. I think it would be helpful if he knew this committee would be sympathetic to this point of view.

Senator BAYH. I am sure that you will be reasonable in your request. I don't need to tell you that the reasonableness of the request will be directly proportional to our sources down there. We will approach them and do our best to see that they treat this problem equitably. We appreciate your taking the time to be with us this morning. Mr. WALENTYNOWICZ. It is a pleasure to be here. Thank you. Senator BAYH. The record will remain open for a period of 20 days, if there is no objection, for the purpose of inserting additional information.

Our next witness is Dr. Jan B. Sklenar, president, Masaryk Chapter Detroit.

We are happy to have you with us.

TESTIMONY OF JAN B. SKLENAR, PRESIDENT, MASARYK CHAPTER DETROIT, CZECHOSLOVAK NATIONAL COUNCIL OF AMERICA

Mr. SKLENAR. Thank you for inviting me and my organization, the Czechoslovak National Council of America, to testify on a bill designed to extend the life of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights. In response to your suggestion, Mr. Chairman, I would like to comment on the achievements of the Commission.

My organization represents Americans of Czech and Slovak decent, and is part of a large family of about 30 million Americans of Slavic descent. We must express our dissatisfaction with the failure of the Commission to deal with discrimination based on national origin. Perhaps the fact that there are no members on either the Commission or its staff of slavic descent contributed to the dismal record of the Commission in dealing with discrimination based on national origin. I would like to call to the attention of this subcommittee, an example of how a policy of selecting one group for preferential treatment can lead to discrimination against another group.

The city of Detroit has always been known as cosmopolitan. The city's population is composed of many ethnic groups. However, in dealing with the city's problems, Federal, State, and local authorities have failed to recognize the importance of the public schools for all segments of the city's population. In order to help one grow, certain policies were instituted which led to discrimination against other

groups.

Recognizing this danger, three Slavic organizations the Michigan Division of the Polish American Congress, the Metropolitan Detroit Ukrainian Congress Committee, and the Detroit Masaryk Chapter of the Czechoslovak National Council of America-in their joint presentation of January 21, 1971, called to the attention of the Detroit Board of Education, the fact that there were no educators of Slavic descent in any key positions, despite the fact that the Slavic community constituted about 30 percent of the city's population.

Time does not permit me to describe several of the additional presentations made by the above organizations on behalf of the Detroit Slavic community. The Slavic community supported the appointment of the first black superintendent in Detroit history. However, the former minority, which became the new majority on the Detroit Board of Education, ignored the constructive proposals of the Slavic organizations, and continued its hiring and promotion procedures of discrimination against educators of Slavic descent.

This policy is forcing people of other ethnic backgrounds than that of the new majority to move out of the city, and is one of the contributing factors to the chaotic situation in the Detroit public schools as recently described by the Monitoring Commission appointed by the Federal District Court to supervise the court's desegregation order.

The Federal Government is pouring millions of dollars into the city and into the public schools. Without Federal funds the city and the schools could not survive. Unfortunately, these funds also support the discriminatory policies of the new majority. Reluctantly, after being rejected by the Board of Education, we were forced to take legal action.

Mr. Chairman, please understand that our organizations are not civil rights groups; we are not involved in politics; we are not pressure groups; and we do not have lobbyists in Washington. Perhaps this is why the Civil Rights Commission ignored the plight of the Slavic communities in our cities.

On August 2, 1977, we were able to secure a court order issued by the U.S. District Court, Eastern District of Michigan, Southern Division, accepting our case as a class action suit and recognizing and defining Slavic national origin. Because we did not receive any help from the Civil Rights Commission or from any other Federal agency, we find ourselves in a situation where the Detroit Board of Education, with unlimited funds provided by the taxpayers, including ourselves, is fighting us in court. The attitude of the new majority in our city is to consider Federal funds something like foreign aid rather than coming from all taxpayers.

Mr. Chairman, can you imagine what would happen if the situation were reversed and our community, being the majority, would deny the 30-percent minority any access to key positions in the city's school system! We are certain that the Civil Rights Commission would be up in arms to help the minority involved, and rightly so. But if the discrimination happens to be against the Slavic minority, there is no action. Mr. Chairman, any discrimination against any group should be equally dealt with in accordance with the existing civil rights legislation.

We just received the new directory of the Detroit public schools listing the key personnel. In the categories of superintendents, there are the following positions: 1 general superintendent, 2 assistants to the general superintendent, 1 executive deputy superintendent, 3 deputy superintendents, 8 assistant superintendents, 9 region superintendents, and 16 region assistant superintendents. Of the total of 40 key officials, not one is of Slavic national origin. Of the 24 high school principals, again not one is of Slavic descent.

We welcome the ruling of the United States Supreme Court of January 16, 1978, that black workers suing over alleged job discrimination may use statistics to bolster their accusations that their employers kept most blacks in lower-paying jobs. We certainly can sympathize with them because this is exactly what we are experiencing in the Detroit Public Schools. In our case we are not dealing with tokenism; we are dealing with zeroism.

I hope, Mr. Chairman, that you understand our misgivings with the Civil Rights Commission and our worries that the Commission will continue its present practices of ignoring discriminaton based on national origin. We are not opposing the bill, Mr. Chairman; we only hope that the subcommittee will consider a way to oversee the activities of the Commission in order to assure fairness in dealing with all cases of discrimination.

We do not have any legal staff; we cannot propose any legislation. We must trust that you and your talented staff will find a way to show your concern for the plight of more than 30 million Americans of Slavic descent.

We cannot accept the role of second-class citizens being used for almost decorative purposes. It is not enough to admire our customs, our ethnic festivals, our contributions to the building of America. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, we are submitting to our respective national conventions a proposal to create a Slavic American Committee for Civil Rights and a Slavic American Political Action Committee. We are doing this reluctantly, but if this is the only way to let Congress and the White House know that we really exist, then we are ready to take this action.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator BAYH. Thank you, Mr. Sklenar.

When you talk about Slavic people, you talk about Ukrainians, Czechoslovakians, Poles

Mr. SKLENAR. There are many more. As we submitted to the U.S. District Court in Detroit, there are 12 Slavic ethnic groups. But we have a common heritage, Mr. Chairman, as you perhaps know. Most of the American universities are aware of it by way of Slavic departments. I am sure your university will have one.

Senator BATH. I am familiar with the whole Eastern European ethic background, but I want it for the record to make sure we were talking just about the Czechoslovakians.

Mr. SKLENAR. Yes; Czechs and Slovaks from Czechoslovakia.