It is not easy to determine at this point just how much would be needed in the way of additional financial support. We would be very glad to have our fiscal people take a look at it in light of our experience in certain other areas and give what would be a very rough estimate as to what additional funds would be required.

But some additional funds would be required if the jurisdiction was expanded to include age discrimination and the whole area of discrimination on the basis of handicaps.

I would be glad to supply that for the record.

Senator BAYH. I wish you would, because that's something I think our colleagues have every right to know.

The area of age discrimination is not a new one to the Commission. As I recall in fiscal years 1977 and 1978, we have authorized and appropriated around $600,000, to at least initiate some action in this area. So it would seem to me you could perhaps come forth with something a little bit more precise than a rough estimate.

Some of our colleagues might be rather rough on that approach as far as the amount is concerned.

Dr. FLEMMING. I appreciate that.

We've had one assignment, as you indicate, in the area of age discrimination when the Congress passed the 1975 amendments to the Older Americans Act. It included the Age Discrimination Act of 1975.

Congress specified, however, that that act was not to become operative until January 1, 1979. It then specified that in the meantime, the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights should conduct an in-depth study on discrimination in the delivery of services supported in whole or in part by Federal funds.

On the basis of that study, we were directed to submit to the President and to the Congress recommendations for possible changes in the Age Discrimination Act of 1975 and also recommendations relative to regulations.

This has been an 18-month study. Congress made available $1.5 million for that. We don't know yet whether all of that will be required or needed in connection with this study. It depends somewhat on the printing bill.

But we can use that as a basis for making some estimates as to what additional studies in the Age Discrimination Act would require in the way of funds in any given year. We can also do the same thing as far as the handicapped area is concerned, although we have not had any experience in the handicapped area up to the present time.

We'll endeavor to develop a figure which will not be characterized by the word "rough." But it will represent our very best estimate, based on the experience that we've had up to the present time. Senator BAYI. Thank you.

Senator Scott.

Senator SCOTT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Dr. Flemming, I would add my word of welcome. It is always a pleasure to have you and your staff here to appear before us.

I am always mindful of the years that you have devoted to public service. I may not always agree with your conclusions, but you have certainly been a credit to the Government service by the services you have rendered.

On the radio coming in today, I heard that the value of the dollar in international trade was falling very badly; and that Germany had attempted, in the past, to stabilize the dollar and had bought up, I think, 4 billion in dollars. But the leadership of West Germany indicated that they did not intend to purchase more dollars or to attempt to stabilize the American dollar further unless the United States made efforts to stabilize the dollar.

Now I'm leading up to the sunset law and to whether or not we need your agency.

As I understand it, you testified in previous testimony that the agency was conceived during the Eisenhower years and the purpose is to collect information and to study the question of civil rights.

I believe you testified a year ago, in your principal testimony, that you had already investigated all of the subject matters that had been assigned to you; but that the enforcement agencies had not accomplished the things that you felt should be accomplished.

Now I didn't oppose very strenuously your request last year. In fact, after some little initial differences, I worked with the chairman in obtaining some additional funds for your agency.

Yet I notice here in this proposed bill the authorization of appropriations.

It says: "There are authorized to be appropriated such sums as are necessary to carry out the provisions of this Act."

It is an open-ended authorization bill with no ceiling put on it. Let me ask you this. You're the Chairman of the Commission. Is that a full-time job for you?

Dr. FLEMMING. The answer is no. All members of the Commission serve on a part-time basis.

Senator SCOTT. Now you also serve on the Commission on Aging; do you not?

Dr. FLEMMING. That's correct; as U.S. Commissioner on Aging. Senator SCOTT. Who has the day-to-day job of operating the Commission?

Dr. FLEMMING. Under the law, the Staff Director, who is appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate.

Senator SCOTT. Is he here today with you?

Dr. FLEMMING. The Staff director is ill. The Deputy Staff Director is now serving as the Acting Staff Director, Mr. Louis Nunez. He is here with us.

Senator SCOTT. Going back to the concept of the sunset law, I think that most people would agree that it's a good concept. From time to time each agency should have to justify its existence; otherwise we build up a vast bureaucracy.

We have a vast bureaucracy now. But it just grows and grows, and one agency gets on top of another which is piled on top of another

agency.

As I understand it, we have the head of the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department scheduled to follow you and testify today. They are an enforcement agency.

I believe Health, Education, and Welfare is also very active in this field.

Are there other Government agencies that are active in the field that your Commission is active in?

Dr. FLEMMING. There are quite a number of departments and agencies of the Government that have a responsibility, for example, in connection with their programs to enforce title VI of the Civil Rights Act.

There is special legislation in the civil rights area, as you know, governing activities in the field of housing. There is special legislation in the civil rights area connected with general revenue sharing, for which the Treasury Department has the responsibility.

We would be very glad to supply for the record a complete list. We have such a list of the departments and agencies that are actually involved in this activity.

Senator SCOTT. I believe that would be helpful to us.

Now you indicated in prior testimony that this agency was conceived and set up during the Eisenhower years. When did the Commission come into existence?

Dr. FLEMMING. 1957. It is 20 years old.

Senator SCOTT. Was it originally authorized for 2 years?

Dr. FLEMMING. Yes.

Senator SCOTT. A 2-year study?

Dr. FLEMMING. That's correct.

Senator SCOTT. And it has now gone on for 20 years. And it has been extended from time to time; is that accurate?

Dr. FLEMMING. Yes.

Senator SCOTT. Now how long do you feel that it should stay in existence? Would your Commission have perpetual existence?

Dr. FLEMMING. We are recommending an extension of the authorization for a period of 5 years. We feel that that is a sound proposal. We feel that at the end of that period-or near the end of that periodthe Congress should reexamine the work of the Commission and the role of the Commission and make the decision as to whether or not it should be extended beyond that period.

Senator SCOTT. Now did you make a recommendation 5 years ago that it should be extended for 5 years?

Dr. FLEMMING. This is correct.

The fact of the matter is in 1968, it was extended for 5 years; in 1972, it was extended for a period of 5 years. So the last two extensions by the Congress have been for periods of 5 years.

As I have examined various Sunset Act proposals, they normally have provided that there should be a reexamination at the end of 5 years.

So it seems to me that our proposed legislation is consistent with the philosophy back of the sunset proposal.

We've been operating under a sunset law from the beginning. Senator SCOTT. Yes. That was your testimony last year-that you had been operating under a sunset law from the beginning.

But you would agree that now is the time for the Congress to take a look at the Commission to determine whether or not it should be extended for an additional 5 years?

Dr. FLEMMING. There isn't any doubt about that. We are recommending that Congress take a look at it, and that Congress decide to extend for a period of 5 years, for the reasons set forth in the statement which I made earlier in the year.

Senator ScorT. Now you have been Chairman of the Civil Service Commission. You've been the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare. You are fully aware, I believe, of the vastness, the size and the budget that our Government has; and you're familiar with the fact that we are over $700 billion in debt, are you not?

Dr. FLEMMING. Yes, sir.

Senator SCOTT. And you're aware that the interest on the national debt, without any retirement of the principal, is something over $46 billion a year-just a carrying charge on the national debt.

Now would you not agree that the Congress should look very carefully at this and every other authorization bill that comes before us?

Dr. FLEMMING. I certainly feel that that is the responsibility of the Congress to take a very careful look at requests for authorization and for programs which carry with them the necessity for the expenditure of funds if the programs are to be implemented.

Senator Scorr. What is it that the Civil Rights Commission does that no other Government agency does?

Dr. FLEMMING. The first thing that the Commission does is to identifv, as I indicated in my opening statement, basic issues in the field of civil rights, conduct in-depth studies, hold public hearings relative to those issues, and then make findings and recommendations to the Congress.

One of the best illustrations of the performance of that function over this 5-year span that we are now thinking about is the work that the Commission has done in the area of desegregation.

In my judgment, when the Commission decided to utilize a fair proportion of its resources for the purpose of making an in-depth study of the desegregation area, such a study was long overdue. The media were being flooded with negative stories relative to desegregation.

We got into the situation in a number of the major cities of the country where we held public hearings. Then on the basis of those public hearings and on the basis of case studies that were conducted in 29 other communities, on the basis of evidence that was collected from over 600 superintendents of schools, we were able to reach the conclusion that in community after community in this country desegregation is working. It is working in such a way as to open up equal educational opportunities for children and young people. It is working in such a way as to bring the various elements within the community together. It is bringing them together because of the fact that they are getting genuine satisfaction out of playing a role in the implementation of the Constitution of the United States.

No one else had done that particular job, and that particular report has been used in a positive and a constructive way throughout the country.

Another major role if I may just round it out

Senator SCOTT. Let's just take desegregation for a moment, and then give you an opportunity to get into other fields.

On the question of desegregation hasn't the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare looked into the question of desegregation? Dr. FLEMMING. The Department of Health, Education, and Welfare has a role to play in the enforcement of desegregation.

Senator SCOTT. Haven't they investigated it?

Dr. FLEMMING. There are quite a number of departments and agencies of the Government that have a responsibility, for example, in connection with their programs to enforce title VI of the Civil Rights Act.

There is special legislation in the civil rights area, as you know, governing activities in the field of housing. There is special legislation in the civil rights area connected with general revenue sharing, for which the Treasury Department has the responsibility.

We would be very glad to supply for the record a complete list. We have such a list of the departments and agencies that are actually involved in this activity.

Senator SCOTT. I believe that would be helpful to us.

Now you indicated in prior testimony that this agency was conceived and set up during the Eisenhower years. When did the Commission come into existence?

Dr. FLEMMING. 1957. It is 20 years old.

Senator SCOTT. Was it originally authorized for 2 years?

Dr. FLEMMING. Yes.

Senator SCOTT. A 2-year study?

Dr. FLEMMING. That's correct.

Senator SCOTT. And it has now gone on for 20 years. And it has been extended from time to time; is that accurate?

Dr. FLEMMING. Yes.

Senator SCOTT. Now how long do you feel that it should stay in existence? Would your Commission have perpetual existence?

Dr. FLEMMING. We are recommending an extension of the authorization for a period of 5 years. We feel that that is a sound proposal. We feel that at the end of that period-or near the end of that periodthe Congress should reexamine the work of the Commission and the role of the Commission and make the decision as to whether or not it should be extended beyond that period.

Senator SCOTT. Now did you make a recommendation 5 years ago that it should be extended for 5 years?

Dr. FLEMMING. This is correct.

The fact of the matter is in 1968, it was extended for 5 years; in 1972, it was extended for a period of 5 years. So the last two extensions by the Congress have been for periods of 5 years.

As I have examined various Sunset Act proposals, they normally have provided that there should be a reexamination at the end of 5 years.

So it seems to me that our proposed legislation is consistent with the philosophy back of the sunset proposal.

We've been operating under a sunset law from the beginning. Senator SCOTT. Yes. That was your testimony last year-that you had been operating under a sunset law from the beginning.

But you would agree that now is the time for the Congress to take a look at the Commission to determine whether or not it should be extended for an additional 5 years?

Dr. FLEMMING. There isn't any doubt about that. We are recommending that Congress take a look at it, and that Congress decide to extend for a period of 5 years, for the reasons set forth in the statement which I made earlier in the year.